Thursday, July 19, 2007

Broken Orange Condom

Warlocks have a problem. You see, there's this socially-accepted anti-'lock mindset that has formed from all of that "overpowered" and "nerf" talk out there. You know what I'm talking about, right? If Warlocks complain about a weakness of theirs, everyone else calls them spoiled, tells them to stop QQ'ing, and their complaints are ignored as a result.

For the most part, that's exactly what should happen. There is VERY LITTLE wrong with the Warlock class at this point, so much of the crying is indeed completely baseless. But, that's not ALWAYS the case. What happens when there is something truly wrong that needs attention? What do we do then? For example, what of the issue of the broken orange condom?

If you know a little about the Warlock class, you're probably familiar with the Succi and Seduce. If you're not, it's not nearly as hawt as it sounds, so don't run off and reroll just yet. Seduce is a crowd-control spell that the Succi can cast on one humanoid target at a time. It's very useful in 1-on-1 PvP; "See. Seduce. Smash." is how one Warlock once described it. Back in the day, I used to plant my Succi on the ramp in WSG, Seduce incoming targets, and greet them with a "berserked" Soul Fire / Shadowburn combo that was enough to kill many. Those were good times.

Yeah yeah, nerf nerf, stfu.

But unfortunately for the 'lock, such control comes at a price. The trade off for the ability to mess with another's mojo is that the Succubus is essentially a wet paper bag in a sexy disguise. She is 2-to-3-shotted easliy, and when she's gone, so is Seduce. This creates a very serious problem if the Warlock is in a PvE CC role where Seduce is the 'lock CC of choice. This is especially the case in heroic instances where Succubi seem to be 1-shotted by as little as an NPC's fart.

Fearing, the other 'lock CC, generally isn't the first option in many cases because it is a very high-maintenance and chaotic CC that sends the inflicted NPC running (oh please don't run into that group, oh please don't run into that group, etc.) and creates the potential that other groups will aggro, causing a wipe (oh shit, why did you run into that group!). Sure, 'locks can control Feared mobs with CoR, but doing so is usually at the expense at must DPS, which may not be a smart thing in many situations. Also, with multiple Fears, things can get ugly very quickly. So, when the Succubus dies and seduce breaks, not much can uber-effectively be done about it, and things can go to shit very, very quickly. And oh, how quickly people point fingers and cry.

In the last Mech pick-up group I was in, I was given CC duties over a Mage that didn't want to sheep because "it lowers DPS." Whatever. I just wanted my stinkin' badges. Bye bye Heroic-friendly Imp. Hello crowd-pleasing Succubus.

After about 20 mins of AFKs, we get started. "Jag," (I hate it when people call me that) "you're the orange condom."

"Thanks sweetie."

The first pull went as expected. Lots of DPS. Lots of of tank aggro. It was a clean, almost textbook quasi-wipe (I had made it out of the instance). F'n brilliant I tells ya. The Warrior tank CHARGED into the group of 3 Blood Elf NPCs on the left. The Rogue follows, drawing the robot patrol. "Oh god." I cast Seduce, which is immediately broken by the now dead Warrior's AoE.

Yes, the DEAD Warrior. The Succi and Rogue quickly followed.

Apparently, the Priest was too busy putting Shadow Word: Pain on everything to heal, and in a Heroic, that means a quick death. I cast Exhaustion on the Elves, booked it towards the entrance and made it out alive, only to be greeted by "What happened to Seduce?" on the other side of the loading screen. /sigh

Now, broken condoms are never a good thing. They lead to pain, stress, unforeseen expenses, and many unplanned sleepless nights. When they happen because of idiocy, they can at least be explained, and hell, are maybe even deserved. However, not all broken condoms happen that way.

Yes, some are due to too much friction and not enough lubrication. Been there, done that. But what about the others? You know, the "wth, now that's just lame" breaks that we are oh so familiar with...

In my experience as a Warlock, I've noticed that Seduce breaks early very regularly compared to most other CC's. Now, this might be my imagination or I'm just missing the true cause of the break (AoE, accidental damage to either the Succi or the Seduced, etc.). Whatever be the case, the viability of Seduce as a serious form of CC, especially in end-game, should definitely be considered.

Think about it. Seduce is one of two CCs in the game (if you even want to count Mind Control) that can be broken by hitting a target other than the CC'd NPC. In group PvP, this renders it almost useless.

Strike 1.

Hitting the Succubus pretty much kills it, almost immediately in Heroics and some PvP situations. No other CC'ing class has a problem quite like that, because if they are attacked, they are usually given healing priority, whereas 'lock pets are usually ignored. I can hear Mages, Priests, Hunters, and Rogues laughing at the thought.

Strike 2.

While Mages and Priests can re-Sheep and re-Shackle before their initial CC's expire, Succubi can't re-seduce during an active Seduce cast. The charm has to break first, and only then can Seduce be cast again. This is something that can be dealt with in most instances, but in Heroics and PvP, it's quite underpowered.

Strike 3.

You're out.

Oh, and they cost a shard to summon every time. And when they die as easily as they do, well, that's a lot of shards.

You're out, twice.

Okay, so you know, maybe I'm exaggerating a little about a few issues that aren't really that big a deal. I usually don't have problems when CC'ing with my Succubus, and I haven't heard many complaints about their weaknesses, to be honest. But I also don't see many Warlocks using their Succi all that often. And given the fact that Warlocks instigate very negative reactions when they complain about anything, maybe passivity is just how the class has decided to deal with it. Perhaps that's the strongest argument of all that Succubi require some much needed attention...

...cause lord knows the last thing we need is another broken condom on our hands.


EvilCheeseWedge said...

The paper bag graphic is what sold me.

Jay said...

While leveling the gnome, I pugged a Ramparts run. When we entered, I'm asked to use the Succi for CC.

I don't complain, I simply state that she is high maintance in that those mobs can basically poke her and she'll die. The 65 Warrior claims he plays a 70 lock and that we excell at CCing things, possibly better than a mage... blahblah.

Anyways... we had a 70 druid healing. I'm not sure why they insisted we CC anything at all. The second pull went as you can predict, succubus died, and then I get yelled at for being useless. Lol... so I told to the tank to try being a tank, instead of qqing... and just pull all the mobs, and we could split DPS it down.

After a lot of thought, I'm guessing, he agreed to tank things. I brought out my Void and single dps'd down 1 target from each pull, while dotting the others.

The rest of the run went fine. Afterwards the warrior whispered me and asked if I'd raided on a lock or something.


So yeah, I feel your pain. Honestly, I'd rather just fear shit than bother with seduce. I mean it cuts back on Shadowbolt cast time if you have to watch it... but at least you're not watching your seduce snap early, succubus having her global cooldown eaten for some reason, while trying to re-seduce... etc. It's not like we can't just dot the feared mob and have it dying while dpsing the main target anyways.

People are dumb.

Succubi are a pvp utility pet, imo. They were never really intended to be a reliable form of cc. I mean... you don't see people go into an instance to raid and say hey you, lock, CC the Circle. There's a reason for that. Tanks just need to learn to multi-target tank. :D

JAGOeX said...

Cheese, have you CC'd with your Succi yet? You'll totally get it when you start doing Heroics on Demon. It's quite the laugh. :)

Jade, I've totally given up on relying on the Succi. What I do now is chain a Shadowbolt and an Amp'd CoEx together to get the target coming towards me very slowly. Then, DoT DoT DoT, SB spam, etc. The NPC is at least at half health before I need to move. And of course, if things get crazy - a Recklessness-controlled Fear is always good. Both of those methods are a lot more predictable and work much better than Seduce imho. :)

Zyphre said...

Haha that was brilliant. Way to latch onto something that doesn't quite compete in the warlock class. Generalists are never the best at anything ;)

Nikto said...

While Mages and Priests can re-Sheep and re-Shackle before their initial CC's expire, Succubi can't re-seduce during an active Seduce cast. The charm has to break first, and only then can Seduce be cast again. This is something that can be dealt with in most instances, but in Heroics and PvP, it's quite underpowered.

While mages can recast sheep on an already sheeped target in PvP, it no longer refreshes the sheep. But it'll still effect the DR. So mages that do that are pretty much idiots. ;)

JAGOeX said...

Well, Mages and Priests have the option to start their recasts early. So they can time it to when the first cycle of the CC breaks.

Seduce must break, which means the Succi has to deal with the hate her Seduce has caused. And being a wet paper bag and all... yeah, it's fairly lame.

Sin said...

About time you updated. Fucking Slacker.

EvilCheeseWedge said...

Yeah, Jago, I've used the wet paper bag in instances, and it's not pretty. Honestly, I think it'd be great if seduce could be re-applied in PvE environments. I say this not so much as someone that plays a warlock, but as someone who plays a priest and gets tired of the seduce target chasing after me ;)

Anonymous said...

Warlocks cry more than any other class in the game. You guys are so spoiled!

Nikto said...

My comment was from a PvP perspective. While mages can time when to resheep a target in theory, it's a bit different in practice. As far as PvP is concerned at least.

As for PvE, I have my 70 warlock. I ran plenty of heroics with her and yep seducing could be a pain at times. There were times when I had no problems with it as well.

I just had to keep an eye on my seduce (helps to have a focus frame add on)and I could reseduce as soon as it broke without changing my target with a focus macro. Usually went very smoothly.

I wouldn't have a problem with Blizzard buffing seduction in PvE at least. I think PvP would be a bit much though. But keep in mind, if you compare the mage class to the warlock class, mage's "superior" PvE crowd control is really all they have going for them in PvE right now. If seduce worked just as well as sheep, why take the mage?

So go on and buff seduce but fix mages too pls. :P

EvilCheeseWedge said...

Until warlocks start handing my priest free water, I will always a take a mage over them :)

JAGOeX said...

See if I ever get you stoned again, Cheesey. =P

Nikki, I'm all for that. ;)

Anonymous said...

There is nothing wrong with the mage other than that stupid invisibility crap they call a spell. There is nothing wrong with warlock pets either. There is something wrong with people though so stop qqing pls and l2play

JAGOeX said...

You're right. This comes down to people having issues. Just remember that the classes we're talking about, well, they're designed by PEOPLE, and people have problems, as you so eloquently stated. So really, couldn't these things be a design flaw on their part as much as a method of approach flaw on ours?

Anonymous said...

Regular instance: cast searing pain a split second before hitting your seduce macro. Mob will be pissed off at you instead of your succy, giving you time to reseduce. (No lock is one shot by anything in a regular instance, right?)

Heroic: Ask your tank to pull by shooting your seduce target instead of skull. Skull's gonna run to him anyways, but this way your seduce is pissed off at the tank instead of you or your poor tissue paper succy. This also helps for when seduce breaks, the mob will go after the tank instead of eating your succy and then the priest.

*shrug* Well, it works for me at least. ;)

Dr. Christi *wink*

JAGOeX said...

Why hello Doc. ;)

All your ideas are good -- every good Warlock knows how to cheat the aggro queen. But the wet-paper-bag is still, afterall, a wet-paper-bag.

Having the 'lock aggro first is useful in regular instances, but the chief complaint is in Heroics and Raids, where on many occasions, 'locks can be brought down in 1-3 hits.

If the tank aggros, the mob will probably end up seduced close-by, meaning that if it is a multiple pull and he uses his AoE abilities, seduce will break, over and over.

Of course, this is all very situational and Seducing is often no prob whatsoever. Much of the time, is isn't worry-free, however, which kinda puts into question the definition of it as a method of "control."